Changeset: 65547751
Revert recent changes to Latin-script name variants
Closed by Pikse
Tags
created_by | reverter;JOSM/1.5 (10966 et) |
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Discussion
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Comment from Pikse
This is done relying on response from member of the data working group (SomeoneElse, see changeset 64937230). In addition, "Kyiv" is set as "int_name" here.
If changes to name variants are proposed in future then this needs to be done language by language, and by examining sources of language in question. It needs to be shown that proposed name variant is used rather than current one. Member of the data working group has provided some further guidance for that (see changeset 64937230).
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
the DWG text that is in that discussion, you personally did not have permission to revert
According to that answer --- I must provide examples of use by foreigners
The discussion is not over yet --- therefore you have no reason to have this rollback
How can you remove kyiv in French Catalan Italian --- if you didn’t require confirmation of real use at all.In addition, we have not finished the discussion on the use of two titles.
You could not give me a rule where it is written that two names are prohibited
Since you are an Estonian - I leave the Russian name Kiiev
all other languages I return kyiv
The DWG answer was not that KYIV is a mistake
According to the DWG answer, you can request confirmation of Kyiv’s use by foreigners.I expect such a question from you for each language.
Tomorrow morning I return Kyiv in all languages except Estonian.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
I left in Estonian kiiev
For each language you need to communicate separately. only having communicated on each language - it is possible to make the decision on rollback or not rollback
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Comment from Pikse
I quote from DWG response: "You don't get to decide what name it is usually referred to as in other languages, unless you can find evidence for it in that language." This confirms that the way you changed name variants was inappropriate. This also applies to French and Catalan name.
You are trying to deceive. DWG answer was not about "Kyiv" being right or wrong (in all Latin-scrpt languages) nor about asking confirmation from foreigners. Instead you were adviced to find evidence that one name variant (Kyiv) is used *rather* than another (Kiev) in language in question, locally-produced tourist information leaflets were provided as an example of evidence.
Since you are the one who wants to change status quo then it's you who needs to provide evidence on every name variant in every language that you propose, and if necessary consult with relevant language communities (e.g. to ask for guidance on how to determine common name variant in this language). Meaning, the burden of proof lies on you.
As for your new proposal to provide multiple name variants as value to one key: noone said that it was prohibited. Which does not mean that this has been agreed upon. In a comment to your change I only said that it would be unusual and why I disagree with this approach in this case.
The bottom line is that whatever you propose this needs to be done language by language. You probably need to approach relevant language communities by other means, there doesn't seem to be much of a point doing it here. Also, if you want to achieve anything, then you really need to change your manners. If you go on deceiving (as above, misquoting or ignoring previous discussion(s), including DWG response) and politicizing stuff then you probably won't convince anyone in anything.
If you will do changes again without it being in compliance with DWG guidance then you leave me no choice but to report this.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
French is returned because Kyiv is in Michelin .com
Michelin.com is a famous cartographic site in France.
Italian is returned because the Senate of Italy used Kyiv in its decision (a link to the site senato it is in our discussion
In this way, the question of name fr and name it is closed.
In the evening I will provide evidence for the rest of the languages.
According to those for which there will be little evidence --- we will discuss the option of two titles -
Comment from Pikse
No it is not closed. As per DWG guidance you were supposed to provide evidence that name variant that you propose is used *rather* than previous name variant. Individual and likely rare uses are not an evidence on this. If anything, "Kyiv" may be given as "alt_name" in French and Italian based on this evidence.
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Comment from Poliakoff Mykhailo
there is success for example BBC NEWS start half the time Kyiv
in the airport of Warsaw corrected the electronic scoreboard
(https://www.the-village.com.ua/village/city/city-news/280087-kyivnotkiev-varshavskiy-aeroport-pochav-pravilno-pisati-nazvu-stolitsi?fbclid=IwAR1aUwvxHr1hbeGiMd-5ZuaIxz1Uqj98f7opl0PBgfSrakTun1VrfcuzBqg )
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