Changeset: 77845837
Reverting 77845132
Closed by iandees
Tags
created_by | reverter_plugin/35084;JOSM/1.5 (15492 en) |
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Discussion
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Comment from ☆Finvenkulo
Mi pardonpetas, kial vi malfaris mian redakton?!
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Comment from iandees
Removing names of important features is harmful. Please see previous blocks and revert comments.
Translated:
Forigi nomojn de gravaj ecoj malutilas. Bonvolu vidi antaŭajn blokojn kaj reverti komentojn. -
Comment from ☆Finvenkulo
En kiu lingvo estu nomoj de kontinentoj kaj oceanoj? Kial ne en la Pola lingvo ekzemple?
Mi proponis nomi ilin en neŭtra Esperanto, sed la uzanto https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck_repair malfaris mian redakton; do mi proponas tute forigi la etikedon "name", kaj forlasi nur name:pl, name:eo, ktp. -
Comment from iandees
Why is Esperanto more neutral than English? No matter, this change should be discussed with the community at large. Changing important features without discussion is why your changes are reverted.
Translated:
Kial Esperanto estas pli neŭtrala ol la angla? Ne gravas, ĉi tiu ŝanĝo estu diskutata kun la komunumo ĝenerale. Ŝanĝi gravajn funkciojn sen diskuto tial kaŭzas viajn ŝanĝojn. -
Comment from ☆Finvenkulo
Angla lingvo apartenas al iu nacio (Angloj), Esperanto estas konstruita, do tiel ĝi estas neŭtra. Por eviti ĉiun diskriminacion, estus pli bone TUTE FORIGI LA ETIKEDON "NAME".
Pardonu, ĉu iu ajn diskutis pri nomi ilin en la Angla? La kreinto eĉ ne skribis komenton (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/445363).
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Comment from ☆Finvenkulo
Vi uzas JOSM en la Angla (en), via programo legas la etikedon name:en kaj vi vidas nomojn en via lingvo: "Europe, Arctic Ocean, Karkinit Bay...". Nigra Maro/Black Sea havas nomon en 69 lingvoj, estas neniu kialo por privilegii iun.
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Comment from Martin Constantino–Bodin
Ĉiel, la specife nomataj etikedoj “name:eo”, “name:en”, ktp. estas korektaj, ĉu ne? Do iu ajn kiu agordis sian mapon por legi specifan lingvon normale legos la nomojn.
La problemo temas pri la baznomo de loko kiuj ne estas asociitaj al specifa lingvo, kiel oceanoj. En kiu lingvo ĝi devintus esti? En mia opinio, estas sufiĉe frustriga ke oni eĉ devas doni tian baznomon por tiaj lokoj ☹ Ĉu eblas lasi la baznomon “name” malplenan kaj nur plenigi la specifajn “name:eo”, “name:en”, ktp.?
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Comment from Martin Constantino–Bodin
(Fakte, estis la propono de Verdizulo: forigi la baznomon “name”, sciante ke ĉiuj lingvoj jam enhavas sian lokalan version “name:eo”, “name:en”, ktp.)
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@Martin Constantino–Bodin - OpenStreetMap is a community. The key point that @iandees was making above was that changes like this need to be discussed with the community first. It's possible (but I think unlikely) that after discussion people will think that having a name for Antarctica really does best represent the languages most spoken there, but the important point is that you can't just dive in and change things to your favourite artificial language without discussion. If you want to reach the OSM community globally, the best place to start is probably https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk .
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@Martin Constantino – Bodin - OpenStreetMap est une communauté. L’argument essentiel que les @iandees ont soulevé plus haut est qu’il faut d’abord discuter des changements de ce type avec la communauté. Il est possible (mais je pense que cela soit peu probable) qu'après la discussion, les gens pensent que le nom de l'Antarctique représente vraiment le mieux les langues les plus parlées dans ce pays, mais le point important est que vous ne pouvez pas vous contenter de changer les choses et de les modifier. langue sans discussion. Si vous souhaitez atteindre la communauté OSM à l'échelle mondiale, le meilleur endroit pour commencer est probablement https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk.
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Comment from Martin Constantino–Bodin
@SomeoneElse I get that. Thanks. (And thanks for the link.) I wasn’t claiming that one should actively change the database without consulting the community. I was just questioning the relevancy of the “name” tag in the case where there is no relevant language associated to the place. Probably not in the right place. Sorry about that.
Also, don’t say that Esperanto is artificial without thinking about it. It indeed started as a constructed language, but its recent (that is, in the last hundred years) evolutions have been entirely driven by its community and its practice (much more than most non-constructed languages, actually): this is not what the word “artificial” is conveying. Using such negatively connoted words is not a good starting point for a safe discussion.
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Comment from skquinn
As much as I like the idea behind having a neutral world language, I found Esperanto quite difficult to learn when I tried. The practical reality, as unfortunate as it may be for non-native English speakers, is that English is as close to a true world language as we are going to get.
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Comment from Martin Constantino–Bodin
@skquinn: You have to understand several things first here.
First, personnal experience is worth exactly nothing when there are studies claiming the contrary. Most studies you can found on Google Scholar mostly study the propedeutical nature of the language, but you can still find some about the learning time. Learning languages is hard in general. You seem to live in an English-speaking area. So yeah, of course English is easier to speak for yourself. This does not mean anything about the language: everybody is biased and that’s why we need some actual statistics to claim anything about language difficulty, not personnal experience.
Second, the suggestion of this changeset here was not to use Esperanto for the main “name” tag. It was to remove the “name” tag for places whose language is not obvious (oceans, Antartica, etc.). The point is that these places are already associated with a ton of localised tags “name:en”, “name:eo”, etc. and thus any renderrer can use them instead. This has nothing to do with actually chosing a neutral language. Note that the documentation does not says that English should be used as neutral ground at all in this situation: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name It is something that has not been stated by the community yet, and should be debated first. Stating that “English is the obvious choice” or anything by that is against the rules for the very same reason that this changeset was reverted.
Anyway, this is absolutely not the right place to debate for it. I’ve send yesterday a message to the talk mailing list on the link given by SomeElse above, and it still awaits moderation. We have to be patient here. But please, do not misunderstand the whole point of the changeset (whose author I am not, but the way) or place personnal biases above scientific studies.
Ways (1)
Relations (4)
- Antarctica (2186646), v35
- Caspian Sea (3987743), v130
- Black Sea (7160849), v226
- Red Sea (9323456), v195
Nodes (1-20 of 21)
- 1
- 2
- Africa (36966057), v75
- Antarctica (36966060), v54
- North America (36966063), v59
- Asia (36966065), v69
- South America (36966069), v68
- Oceania (249399679), v69
- North Pole (269538499), v35
- Southern Ocean (305639157), v31
- Arctic Ocean (305639710), v34
- North Atlantic Ocean (305639726), v39
- Pacific Ocean (305640005), v53
- Indian Ocean (305640074), v34
- Mediterranean Sea (305640275), v49
- Atlantic Ocean (305640306), v39
- Maldives (424311641), v76
- South Pole (436012592), v29
- Karkinit Bay (4338416556), v14
- Irminger Sea (4788152681), v14
- Black Sea (7015642404), v9
- Red Sea (7018148423), v9
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